The Power of Paws with Dr. Nancy Gee

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Inventivity. What does it mean? The state of being inventive, creating or designing new things or thoughts? Hello, I'm, um, Richard Miles. Welcome to the inventivity pod. Join us as we speak to inventors, entrepreneurs, and visionaries who are using inventivity to change the world. They will bring us alongside their journey as they share their personal stories from start to finish, including the. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Richard Miles, and welcome to our series exploring the animal health industry, a look at what it is, who's involved, and what the future is going to look like thanks to innovators and their inventivity. And for this limited series, we're able to talk to subject matter experts who are excited to give our audience a look into the growing and impressive animal health industry, and inventors who are utilizing their inventivity to help animals. Today's guest is Dr. Nancy G. She is a director of the center for Human Animal Interaction at Virginia Commonwealth University and also the president of the International Society for Anthrozoology. She earned her PhD from the University of South Florida and has participated in dog training and dog sports since childhood. [00:01:15] Speaker C: Dr. [00:01:15] Speaker B: Uh, g also has a leadership role in the dogs on Call program, which provides complementary therapy to enhance the well being of patients, staff, and students through canine assisted interventions. So, Dr. G. Nancy, I have to fess up something from the very beginning, and that I'm not a dog owner, but I am somewhat dog adjacent. I like them. I just don't want to own one. Uh, but I do believe people say that having a dog is the most wonderful thing that ever happened to them. So I have to apologize in advance. [00:01:44] Speaker C: That's quite all right. In fact, interacting with a dog, you can get the benefits right there. You don't necessarily have to have all the burden of ownership, the cost of the food, and all the other stuff. If you just interact with a dog, you can reap those benefits, too. [00:01:57] Speaker B: Well, it's funny, my wife grew up very much, uh, in a dog family, and she always assumed that we would get a dog, which she didn't realize till later. She did have a limited window. She could have talked me into doing it, um, before we started having kids. But once we started having kids, I thought the idea of having to take care and clean up after another breathing thing just was too much. So, um, she said she should have told me earlier. So, Nancy, why don't we start for our audience just kind of maybe defining one of the terms that I threw out there in your introduction, and that is, what is anthrozoology? What exactly does it mean and how long has it been around? [00:02:32] Speaker C: As a discipline, the term really implies the study of all things related to human animal interaction. So it's the impact that animals have on us, and it's the impact that we have on animals. So our impact and the sorts of things that we do that affect their lives, whether it's good or bad. And likewise, uh, the way animals affect us, whether good or bad, the, uh, international society for anthropology, or ISAs, has been around for. I'm the president, I should know the answer to this, I think 40 years, maybe. No, 50 years. I think we had our 50 year. Yes, it's been 50 years. [00:03:06] Speaker B: That's impressive. [00:03:07] Speaker C: So, uh, it's a relatively young field publication, started appearing in this field around 1960, and has really just kind of blossomed from there. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Wow, I didn't realize it had been around for 50 years. But you're right, it is still a relatively young discipline. So tell us now, how do you, as a sort of researcher, how does it impact, or how do you measure, I guess, the impact of the presence of animals on physical and mental health in humans? [00:03:35] Speaker C: Yeah. So there's a couple of ways. We can look at the relationship of pet ownership to health and well being outcomes. So, for instance, we can look at pet owners, and we can compare them to non pet owners and look at things like the incidence of cardiovascular disease, or depression or anxiety. That's one way to do it. We can track that over time. That gives us a little bit better information than kind of those snapshot, um, studies. And then we can also look at interaction studies. And this is where, for instance, you can bring an animal into a nursing home to interact with older adults. And there you have a little bit more control in the studies because you can decide who gets the animal, how long they get the animal, what control condition they get. And it gives us a bit more sort of scientific, uh, strength in that type of study. And so the evidence there tends to be a bit stronger than pet ownership results, although the pet ownership studies are showing some very interesting findings. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Really? And is there a particular, I guess, type of mental health issue or situation in which, uh, dogs or any animal, I guess, tend to help the most? [00:04:42] Speaker C: It's a great question, and it's not quite as simple as you would think. So, uh, if we look at things like cardiovascular disease, we've got some really strong evidence that indicates that people who own pets have a reduced risk for cardiovascular disease, particularly if you own a dog. And that's even when you factor out dog walking because you'd think walking would give you that physical fitness edge. So when you factor that out, still, just owning the dog has a relationship to this reduction in risk of cardiovascular disease. In fact, the American Medical association issued a statement to that effect, that pet ownership, particularly dog ownership, may have a causal role in the reduction of cardiovascular risk. That's a big deal for that kind of a causal statement to come out of that. When you look at other things like depression, it's a little bit more complicated, because in some cases, pet ownership is actually associated with an increased risk of depression, and in other cases, a decreased risk of depression. And it's possible, and this is where pet ownership studies are a little bit problematic. It's possible that people self treat for depression by acquiring a dog. So they may be really feeling down and their friends, in an effort to help them say, hey, you know what? You should get a dog. That'll help you. And it's very possible that people do that they may acquire a dog in order to help them with their depression. And so if that's the case, then we would expect a higher incidence of depression among pet owners because people who are depressed tend to get dogs. But again, that's challenging to separate that out. And that's where we come back to interaction studies, and the interaction studies give us that stronger evidence. And so if I can just segue over to interaction studies really quickly, when we take a dog in to visit older adults in a nursing home, for instance, we do see pretty good evidence of reductions in depression following those visits. So there is some indication that that does work. The question that we're still working on in the field is, well, how long does it last? Is it just short term, or does it last for a longer period of time? So we're looking at that now, right? [00:06:51] Speaker B: There's a beautiful column written about a couple of years ago in the Washington Post by an author named Mike Gerson, who I happen to know who passed away last year. He wrote, you know, why I will never live without a dog again? He didn't get a dog until relatively late in life, but the last couple of years of his life, he had a dog. And he wrote beautifully about what it meant to have a dog, what it meant to him. Um, he also did suffer from depression. So I think he mostly was known for his political commentary. He was an official in the Bush White House. He did a lot of things. But I'd be willing to bet that particular column probably was seen by and read by, uh, millions of people because it spoke very eloquently and movingly about what it meant to have a dog, particularly for someone who suffers from know. [00:07:37] Speaker C: And that kind of writing is so incredibly powerful, and it's that sort of thing that has spurred us on to do research on older adults and pet ownership. In fact, Erica Friedman and I have been using the, uh, Baltimore longitudinal study on aging, which is the longest running study of healthy human aging in the world. And we were able to get some pet ownership questions added into that, and then we got pet ownership history. So now we can look over a ten year period, we can look at the impact of pet ownership on older adults. And we recently published some papers on this. One study showed that older adults who have pets, they have less deterioration in cognition. So people who don't have a pet, their cognition is deteriorating faster as they age. We found the same thing with physical function. So those two things alone are pretty important. We just prepared a paper on psychological adaptation, similar kind of findings where psychological adaptation deteriorates. As you age, you become more prone to kind of mental illness and such, and it deteriorates more rapidly for non pet owners. So there's really some good evidence that indicates that older adults having a pet is really good for them and in society. We really need to find ways to support pet ownership amongst older adults, because they do tend to, uh. I've got to move into a nursing home. M and I can't take my pet with me, so we need to help them with those kinds of issues. [00:09:07] Speaker B: Right. Have you looked at the effects of, um. I always notice I go running most mornings, and I always see people out walking their dogs. Right. And so it seems like when two dog walkers meet, unless their dogs are hostile to, et cetera, there's sort of this instant bond, or at least a strike of a conversation about their dogs and so on. Um, and then, of course, you have dog parks and so on. Is there any evidence to suggest that an additional effect is that you are more likely on a daily basis to meet and interact with other people because you're out walking your dog. [00:09:38] Speaker C: Yeah. What you're talking about is social capital, right? And pet owners build social capital faster. So if you move into a new neighborhood, pet owners are likely to meet other pet owners. And, hey, I'm going out of town this weekend. Would you mind coming over and watching my cat or feeding my cat? Or can you let my dog out? I need to go to the dentist. And you begin exchanging favors, and you develop these friendships based on your pet. And it often starts just as you said, doing a dog walk in the neighborhood and running into another person with a dog, and before you know it, you're walking the same route and you're chatting, you're striking up friendships, and absolutely, yes, this is one of the things that we've seen. Um, there's some nice work done by some researchers down in Australia on that very topic. [00:10:21] Speaker B: So, uh, my wife and I have been cat owners our whole life, and we recently had to, I, uh, wouldn't say give up is the right word. I think the cat divorced us. He would run all over the neighborhood. We'd have to go out and find him every night. We ended up getting a GPS tracker for him. He was a very friendly cat, and almost every day, I would get a call from somebody reading his number on his tag saying, hey, we've got your cat, or we saw your cat, and we'd have to go literally through the alleys every night looking for his little GPS. And we really got to know, or actually, people got to know our cat and then through our cat, know us. But he glommed onto somebody else's household and never came back to us. And so we eventually just transferred the pet records. But in some ways, I miss having to go out and look for him every night because it really did get us out in the neighborhood. [00:11:07] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And cats are in that way. They do tend to get adopted around the neighborhood, ah. Where people are feeding them or have toys or whatever draws the cat in. And cats will range far and wide in their travel, so that's not uncommon. [00:11:23] Speaker B: Before we move on to another question, I just want to ask, in terms of the studies that show this connection, um, between improvements and so on. And I know this is probably a controversial question, but is there a species or dog breed that seems to be better? And keep in mind, I literally have no dog in this fight. So you can say whatever you want, whatever breed, and it won't offend me. But, uh, does the data show or just, is a dog a dog? [00:11:49] Speaker C: Um, what's great about all the different breeds is that different breeds can really fit our lifestyles. So, for instance, somebody who really likes to run, they might want to get a border collie who wants to go and run with them. They're very active breed. They need somebody with a really active lifestyle, and they're going to really mesh. You wouldn't want to get a more sedentary breed, like a facet hound. A Bassett hound is going to struggle to go on a jog with you, for instance. And so some of that is matching, really doing your research on the breed characteristics to see what fits your lifestyle. But assuming you find a breed that fits your lifestyle, there's lots of variety within breeds, and so there's a ton of variation. So you'll see that within a given breed, some dogs are more affiliative than others. They really want to go and visit strangers, and some are very much attached to their owner and aren't really necessarily interested in visiting with other people. And so there's a lot of individual differences within breeds. [00:12:44] Speaker B: Nancy, one of the things that, uh, you're doing is you're president of the International Society for Anthrozoology. So I was wondering sort of what are the different viewpoints or attitudes in other countries towards pets? Uh, I spent some time in my career in Fairmountain, Europe, and also in the Middle east, and in Germany, for instance, it was and still is perfectly fine to bring in your dog, in particular, into a restaurant and have it even sit next to you and so on, whereas in the Middle east, particularly in arab countries, dogs are not at all welcome anywhere. Uh, so what are some of the differences in how people just view pets in general, and then specifically dogs? [00:13:22] Speaker C: You're absolutely right. We see a wide variety of perspectives. In some countries, they eat dog. Uh, so they treat dogs very differently because it's a food source. In other countries, particularly countries that have a high muslim presence, dogs are considered unclean. And so dogs are not treated the same way in terms of being a part of their family, as we would see it kind of in more western society. When you go down to places like New Zealand and know cats predate on birds. And so it's a very real issue. And they're sort of requiring that cats be indoor pets in order to preserve the wild bird populations down there. And so we do see just a ton of differences, and it's one of the things I think, that our field really needs to do. It needs to do that big global study where we ask similar questions about pet ownership, but we ask those questions across a wide variety of countries, and I think that, uh, that is the next big study that needs to be done. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Nancy, one of the things that we have uncovered sort of in talking about pets is consumer spending on pets, uh, has risen very quickly and sort of dramatically just in the last five years, something on the order of $30 billion, I think, in the United States. Uh, first of all, is that accurate, in your view? And then how does that translate and sort of affect the average pet? Are they getting a benefit from, say, the gourmet dog foods and the like, or what are your thoughts on that? [00:14:52] Speaker C: I was involved in a research study with a UK researcher, Rebecca Fox, and we looked at changing conceptions of care, and one of the things that we found was, yes, there's a lot more spending on animals now. Some of it's really good for the animals and some of it is questionable. So, for instance, uh, improvements in veterinary care. We've had advances in veterinary care, medications to treat various diseases and so on. That's really good for the animals. Improvements in nutrition. Now we have some really sophisticated animal diets that include things like treating kidney disease in cats. So that veterinary care, nutrition, all of that increased spending, I think has had a really positive impact on animals. You mentioned GPS trackers. Well, that's something we didn't used to have. Right. And now we have activity monitors for animals. They can wear a whistle tracker and some of them have gps in it. You can learn all kinds of things. Is your dog scratching more? Maybe the dog has an ear infection. Right. So there's some really good things that have come out of all of this increased spending, but there's also some other things that are a little more peripheral. There are all kinds of costumes and clothing that animals can wear by and large, animals don't really need to wear clothing. There are circumstances under which it makes sense. I used to live up in New York state, and I'll tell you what, I would put booties on my dogs because walking on the salted pavements would burn their. Sometimes, you know, it's really cold out. And if you're cold and your dog's an indoor dog, the dog's probably cold too. So putting a coat on, uh, on the dog makes some sense. But there's jewelry for dogs. Some people are getting their dogs tattooed, and there's all kinds of boutique spending now on dogs and cats. So is that good for them? Well, in some cases, I think it does stress them, but in other cases, I think that it might serve as a way for people to bond more with their dogs and their cats if they're really genuinely paying attention to the stress signs and not just saying, oh, no, he likes it. No, really, look at the dog and see if the dog genuinely wants to wear that. Know, before you put it on the dog. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Nancy, one thing we always like to ask our guests is what is their source or what was their source of inspiration for going into a particular field? And particularly those inventors who think of an invention, you're always curious, how did they start? So tell us, what were you like, as a kid, did you always have an interest in dogs and in animals? And if so, where did that come from? Parents, teachers, siblings, or just being around them? [00:17:31] Speaker C: It's a great question. I've never actually lived a day in my life where I've not owned a dog. And so I've had. I mean, since the day I was born. I came into a family. We had dogs. And so that definitely influenced my life. I went into cognitive and neurosciences. That was what my PhD is in. And so I was keeping my academic life really separate from my love of dogs. And I was doing dog sports and doing dog training and really kind of doing things with dogs, but keeping it separate. And then one day, somebody said to me at an agility trial, your dogs, uh, they really love to interact with people. I bet your dogs can make good therapy dogs. And we're doing a test this weekend. You ought to come see if you can pass. So I thought, okay, what the heck? I took them to the test. Both dogs passed. The reason they passed is because they were really good at responding to commands and things at a distance, and they were highly trained for a specific skill. They passed the test. And now I have these registered therapy dogs, and I've got to go do something with them. And so I started trying out different places to visit. I visited children with behavioral problems. I visited older adults. I went to all these places. And then there was a preschool in my building where I was a professor, and that preschool had a mix of typical and language impaired preschool kids. And I started visiting there. And before you know it, the teachers had us integrated into their curriculum. Parents were raving about it. The only complaint we ever got was that we visited on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and some kids were only there Monday, Wednesday, Friday, so their kid didn't get the therapy dogs. And so here's the scientist in me, and I said, but wait, is this real? Does this just feel good? People come away with smiles. I mean, I can tell you some very impactful stories. I was there. I saw it happen. It gives you chills just thinking about it. But at the same time, I needed to know if there was anything real to it. And that's what got me started doing this research all those years ago. And it's real. There are definite effects based on visiting with these dogs. [00:19:28] Speaker B: A couple of questions I actually meant to ask earlier, but I'm going to go ahead and ask them now. What are the trends in dog ownership? I mean, we've seen consumer spending go up, but is that because there are more dog owners, or is it because people are just spending more on their individual pets? [00:19:43] Speaker C: You know what? I think it's a little bit of both. We are seeing increases in dog ownership, um, and particularly during the pandemic. We saw a boost in pet ownership during the pandemic. So we're seeing that. That's part of it. But I think we're sort of raising the bar with regard to pet ownership. There are greater expectations on people. So people are now really expected to put their dog on a leash when they walk their dog. And if you don't, there's a little bit of shaming, there's a leash law. So the standards have changed, and so the standards have been slowly going up, which I think is wonderful that standards of care have been going up, but as a result, we're seeing these increases in spending related to our love of animals. Right. I just took my dogs to petsmart the other day, and I bought them no toys just because I felt like they deserve new toys. And we like doing that. We're in a capitalist society. One way we show our love is we buy things for people. Right? We buy them gifts, we do the same thing for our pets. We buy them things. And I got a lot of joy out of coming home and seeing my dogs play with their new toys. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Now my inner nerd is going to come out. Um, I've always been interested in demography. And are there demographic variables that will sort of either predict or correlated with dog ownership? Like, for instance, are people in rural areas more likely to own dogs versus urban? Are people who are single more likely to own dogs, people with kids, et cetera? Are there any of those sort of life events or demographic identifiers? Are they in any way tied or correlated with dog ownership? [00:21:21] Speaker C: Well, one of the things that we're seeing you point out, and rightly so, that, uh, there is more spending on animals, and as a result, animals are more expensive. And so animals are starting to move into the luxury category. You really need to know that in the next 15 years, because life expectancy for cat or dog is around 15 years, in the next 15 years, I'm going to be able to provide a home for this animal. I'm going to be able to provide veterinary care, good nutrition, toys, whatever housing needs they have leashes and so on. And so there is this element of, um, knowing that you can be financially and also lifestyle, uh, matched to a pet. So individuals who work 60 hours a week having a dog can be really challenging. Dogs are social animals. They want their people to be there with them. Having a cat might be a little bit better choice for that person, because when they come home, they can interact with their cat at home. Cats tend to be a little bit more night oriented anyway. And fish. Fish are another great pet to have. And that's also relatively expensive because you need to purchase the aquarium and all the products that go into the. Yeah, we are seeing that the increase in spending is also associated with making it a little bit more expensive and kind of a leisure activity in the sense that you need to have the time. [00:22:41] Speaker B: Nancy, this has been a fascinating conversation. Even though I don't own a dog, I sort of think it's incredible that, uh, that sort of relationship, um, particularly with dealing with things like depression or for older people, it's really made me think about sort of the use that they can play, particularly in older people's lives. Sounds quite significant. Thanks very much for talking to me today, uh, and wish you all the best. [00:23:04] Speaker C: Well, thank you for having me. This has been a lot of fun. [00:23:07] Speaker D: The inventivity pod is produced by the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention, located in Gainesville, Florida. Richard Miles and me, James de Virgilio, are your podcast hosts. Podcasts are recorded at the Heartwood Soundstage in Gainesville and edited and mixed by Rob Rothschild. Be sure to subscribe to the inventivity pod wherever you get your podcasts, and leave a comment or review to let us know how we're doing. Until next time, be inventive.