Episode Transcript
-- [00:00:01] Richard Miles: Inventivity, what does it mean? The state of being inventive, creating, or designing new things or thoughts. Hello, I'm Richard Miles. Welcome to the Inventivity Pod. Join us as we speak to inventors, entrepreneurs, and visionaries who are using Inventivity to change the world. They'll bring us alongside their journey as they share their personal stories from start to finish, including the triumphs, the failures, and everything in between.
[00:00:31] Richard Miles: Welcome to another episode of The Inventivity Pod. I'm your host, Richard Miles. And today, in a first for this podcast, we have three guests instead of our normal one . And we're going to talk about not just inventions in general, but the specific steps that these inventors took to move their ideas into the marketplace and all of the work that that entailed. And this is a bit of a departure for us. Normally, we talk about ideas coming out of big university research labs that will take years to get to market, that require lots of testing, subject to lots of regulations, and need millions of dollars in investment. And today, we'll be hearing from inventors of consumer products who face a whole different set of other challenges in a hyper competitive market dominated by very large consumer brands. And they face barriers that are quite different than a research team in a lab, for instance, working on some sort of new medical device or a new wind turbine or something like that. First up today, we're going to hear from, um, Edie Tolchin, author of the recently released book Secrets of Successful Women Inventors, how they Swam with the Sharks, and hundreds of ways to commercialize your own inventions. Then we're going to hear from Angelique Warner, the inventor of GoGo Vie, a new kind of premium baby carrier. And finally, from Kenya Adams, inventor of the Panty Buddy, a travel kit that makes using public restrooms a little less scary. So welcome to the show, Edie, Angelique and Kenya, thank you very much. So, uh, Edie, let's start with you. You've interviewed over the course of your career and worked with hundreds of inventors so you know the challenges that they face. Tell us first a little bit about your background, and then tell us what your latest book is about.
[00:02:10] Edie Tolchin: Well, to begin, I'm not a youngster. I'm sort of on the other end, where I've, uh, retired my personal business. I started up from college in import export from day one. And by 1997, having worked for other companies, I just decided, you know what? I've had it. I'm going to do this on my own. And I began working with inventors. I created a company called EGT Global Trading. I've worked with Angelique so she knows. I began to write about inventing and my experience with inventors. I've done, um, lectures and conferences and inventions judging over the years.
So I've written a total of five books, and this new one is my fifth, endorsed by Barbara Corcoran, one of the sharks. Um, she also endorsed a book that I did in 2015. It was Called Secrets of Successful Inventing. But my goal now is to give women exposure. Women inventors only hold 13% of US Patents, and we want to change that. So that's why this book and, um, hopefully another one, I'm trying to work on a follow up.
[00:03:31] Richard Miles: That's a great idea. One thing we talk about at the Cade Museum is the unique structure in the US. Compared to other countries in terms of, um, a culture that really sort of supports and encourages inventors, which is not something you find very often. And one of the things we point out is that the inventors clause in the Constitution actually was written into law before the Post Office. It was the most democratic of all the institutions, really. So we're talking 1800 women had the right to invent, freed blacks had the right to invent and put their names on patents. And this is obviously before the right to vote, before the Civil War. And so it kind of, uh, showed there was a model out there for citizen inventors, and it's come risen and fallen over the course of our history. But I think what you're writing about now shows that it's still alive. And, you know, people out there with a good idea, they, uh, want to move it to market yeah, by and large, there's a lot of support to help them, even though they face, um, a lot of challenges. So let's hear a few of those challenges now. Angelique, tell us about GoGoVie, which is your company that you started and your product that you invented. How does it differ and as I understand it's, a premium baby carrier, how does it differ from other baby carriers? And tell us how you came up with the idea.
[00:04:47] Angelique Warner: GoGoVie Premium Baby Carrier is the USA's first and only patented seven in one hybrid sling and buckled baby carrier, featuring five in one private hands free breastfeeding solution. So, GoGoVie is very different from the other carriers in the market. Mainly, it does offer seven unique, upright and recline positions, whereas other carriers in the market that are buckled carriers only offer upright positions, and other carriers don't offer five positions for breastfeeding. So that makes GoGoVie very unique in the market. So I'm very proud of that and really excited that I do hold the USA's only patent in that way. Uh, I'm excited that the idea that I had for the baby carrier came in a potty emergency with my twins. So it was an interesting day, like any other day, where I was breastfeeding our baby, potty training our one year old identical twins, and keeping up with my four year old, who was pretty active. And we also ran a boarding school home where we had 14 teenagers entrusted in our care. So, if you can imagine 18 kids at home, and I'm breastfeeding and potty training and all of that that I needed my hands. So one day in that potty emergency, I saw a buckled carrier that mimicked an arm positioning for breastfeeding, and it had built in privacy. And I realized what I saw was not on the market, because I did go to the store and look for it, and I did actually check online and didn't find it anywhere. So I realized what I saw was up, uh, to me to create it.
[00:06:12] Richard Miles: So that's a great story. So tell us, how did you get that idea, that inspiration sort of out of your head? Because you probably realized right away, if you wanted to make it work, there's a whole bunch of work you need to do, right? I mean, you got to figure out a prototype, who's going to manufacture it, who's going to buy it, all those things. Where did you start first, and did you get any help? Did you ask around for, like, hey, how do I do this?
[00:06:35] Angelique Warner: Well, at first, I just went at it alone, trying to figure it all out. And then I realized, it's such a long process, I have to try and streamline it here. I did work with Edie for a period of time because I realized that I needed to figure out how to go from this one prototype that I had, how to perfect it, how to make sure it's tested, how to make sure that it's safe, how to make sure it has all the right labeling, all of these things. And how do I get it manufactured? And I attended the, um, inventors I forget the name of it.
[00:07:04] Edie Tolchin: Impex.
[00:07:05] Angelique Warner: It was an inventor impex. That's what it was called, impex. It was an inventors convention. And that's where I met Edie, and I had a chance to learn more about all of the things you just mentioned. Where do you get it manufactured in the testing and so forth. And, uh, from there, I realized I'm onto something. This is something I need to go further with and figure out all the details. And I'm glad I did, because it was a long eight year journey to get GoGoVie from my head with no notable drawing or sewing skills and no design or engineering background. It was just I saw something in my mind's eye and needed to figure out how to get it from up here to the market. And, uh, so that was an eight year process. But when I figured out all the details and got it all done through trial and error, through several, uh, seamstresses who I asked them, can you sew by description only? And we started there veered off from the different seamstresses, because ultimately, they weren't capturing what I saw. And so I just had to figure it out through hand stitching prototypes and trying to see if it worked with Moms. Tell them, Hold the baby's weight. There's no way this is going to hold. I just hand stitched this, but I need to see if it fits. And so after going through that over this eight year journey, I realized after I tried it on a mom, she said, this is it. I've seen all your iterations. This is it. And so that's what I took to market in 2016.
[00:08:25] Richard Miles: Angelique when did you apply for a patent for it?
[00:08:28] Angelique Warner: Actually, my patent was applied initially. I want to say it was in 2008. It took eleven months for a patent examiner to contact me and say, oh, congratulations, you have been awarded a patent. And I'm thinking, you call to tell people this. And so I was like, well, great. I was so inspired because I wrote the first patent application. So I felt like, good job, you did this on your own. And he said, Can I ask you a question? Did you write this yourself? And I said yes. I did. I was all proud. He said, I can tell. He said, uh, I'm going to advise you to abandon this application. Do not accept this patent. You have zero protection with it. Hire you a patent attorney and actually have someone write you a broad yet specific patent application that will give you protection. This is not it. And I was crushed, but happy. He could have just said, you're awarded. I could have paid, would have had no idea I had no real protection. But I'm grateful that he cared enough to call and talk with me. And at that point, I hired the patent attorney and had to start all over. And I didn't actually, um, get awarded my patent until 2022.
[00:09:31] Richard Miles: Okay. But it was pending. So you had some protection? A little bit.
[00:09:35] Angelique Warner: A little bit. And then we had to turn around and I've had to abandon before and restart up because of the design revisions. So it took a while.
[00:09:43] Richard Miles: So that brings us to a second issue that most inventors face, and that's money, right? Most patent attorneys don't work for free. Most prototypers don't work for free. Is it friends and family? Did you find somebody who's willing to give you a loan? Because, uh, usually that's a pretty big obstacle for most inventors to get over.
[00:10:02] Angelique Warner: Yes, well, I didn't have a bunch of loans at all. Actually, I had no loans, so I actually had one. It was the Duncan Legacy Fund loan, and that was $2,500 years later to go to a conference I wanted to attend, uh, a trade show. Other than that, I've had no loans. My husband and I have been funding this from our family income, and that's been very difficult with the attorney that I hired, through some difficulties that he was having with handling things the way he ideally should have, he was being audited. And so he asked me, listen, if we can help each other out, I mean, if I work for you pro bono, the auditors will lay off. So now you get pro bono work and I get to keep my license. Are you okay with that? And I said, that sounds like a good idea to me.
I'm like, Listen, we can help each other. And so that's how I was able to go forward that way. But then after some time, when my patent application was ready to be granted, I was advised not to accept that patent application again. It was just a constant roller coaster. Come to find out that patent attorney that was working for me pro bono did not include my prior art from my original design, which was Nurse and Go. He hadn't included that. So I found out, if that prior art is not included in that patent application, someone could cite your prior art against you in a lawsuit and say, we're not stealing your art, because you already abandoned that and you never came back and claimed it. I didn't know all the legal stuff behind that. But then I was able to work with the Chicago Patent Hub, which also worked pro bono. They just kind of picked up the mantle and said, you're a micro entity. We'll work with you pro bono, and we will make sure that we get you to the finish line with all the protection you need. And they actually did that. So now I have nursing Go tied into GoGoVie's patent application, and I'm patented that way. But we, um, had two family members who assisted us at two different occasions. One when I was working with Edie, and that money was able to help pay for her services. And the second time around was my uncle when it was time for us to actually launch and I had to buy inventory. But other than that, it's been my husband and I.
[00:12:10] Richard Miles: So it sounds like you had a pretty supportive family. Did you have anybody that said, like, Angelique, what are you doing? This is nuts. You need to stop.
[00:12:18] Angelique Warner: Yes, uh, I had family members after they thought it was a cool idea. They did feel it was God inspired. But when years go by, eight years of R and D is a long time. So you have some people who are really looking at this. Are you still working on that thing, that little project of yours? Are you still messing around with that? And how is it coming with that little idea you started over time, seeing the terminology go from, wow, this is cool, to this little project, this little idea, and, uh, are you still working on this? So that became interesting to me, but I realized people just became fatigued with hearing about the process, and it didn't stop me. I knew what I saw, and I was not going to be happy until I found out the outcome of what I saw.
[00:13:04] Richard Miles: You put it beautifully, Angelique. And we hear this from a lot of know when you initially come up with these great ideas you do have. A lot of people say, that's fantastic, but when you're sort of down in the trenches working on it, and you may be making progress or not, people start thinking, like, why are you doing this? Tell us a little bit about your background. You said you weren't a seamstress. Um, but have you always been interested in design and problem solving? Or where did that come from in your experience?
[00:13:28] Angelique Warner: Actually, to be very honest with you, it was none of those things. It was not a design background. Not, uh, interested in design. I love nice home decor. That's my thing. I enjoy that. But not for design in a sense of product design or anything like that, or clothing design or fashion, any of that. I believe what it was, to be quite honest, is I know that I have a gift of faith, and that is something that has been driving me ever since. I know what I saw, as sure as I know my name. So if somebody says Angelique and they're with an earshot, I know they're talking to me, I'm going to turn around. I saw what I saw that clearly that I literally went to the store to look for it. So I know it was given to me as inspiration to create. And I have this thing where I'm not going to rest until I know that I've seen what it is that I saw. If I don't see it with these two eyes, what I saw in my third eye, I'm not going to be content. So I believe the gift of faith kept me going, that I have to do this because it's been entrusted to me.
[00:14:26] Richard Miles: Also very similar to what we hear is this resilience, this commitment to the vision, the idea that you had, even if other people at times don't see it or they don't think it'll work. And that, in our experience, dealing with inventors tends to be the difference between the successful inventors and the ones who aren't, is the successful ones are just they keep at it, and they keep at it even if they have setbacks and so on.
[00:14:48] Angelique Warner: Agreed. We have lots of setbacks.
[00:14:51] Richard Miles: Right? Yeah. I can imagine.
[00:14:53] Angelique Warner: My mom did always say, though, that I was the type of child where every single morning when she would ask, I would tell her what I dreamt and that I would dream in such vivid color and detail and that when I see things, I remember all the details of it and that I could communicate all the details of what I saw in my dreams. And I've been doing that my entire life. And I dream and can tell people all the details almost every single morning. And so from that, I wonder how that played into seeing this vision, being able to really home in on what I saw and stick to the vision.
[00:15:25] Richard Miles: Well, that's pretty unusual, because I know I wake up after I've had a dream, and if I don't say it out loud in five minutes, I can't remember what it know half an hour later. It's like something, something I can't remember.
[00:15:37] Angelique Warner: I get it. Yeah, it happens.
[00:15:38] Richard Miles: Angelique thank you. Wonderful story. So, Kenya, now your turn. I think we can all relate to the trauma of public restrooms, so you don't have to explain that part of the issue. But how did you come up with the idea, um, of a travel kit for women? You can tell us what's in the travel kit, but really the same question that I asked Angelique, one, how did you come up the idea? And then, how did you get that idea out of your head and take those first steps? Like, all right, I have a product in mind, and I got to figure out who's going to make it, who's going to design it, all that sort of stuff.
[00:16:09] Kenya Adams: Yes, absolutely. So, uh, like Angelique, the Pantybuddy for me was really born out of necessity. Mother of invention is necessity, right? And so, for me, I was traveling a lot for work, and I would find myself frequently using public restrooms, kind of small, cramped public restrooms. So airplanes, think, airports with luggage in the stall with you and all of that stuff. And so I found myself just really feeling like I need an extra hand or I need something just kind of help me out a little bit to make sure everything is going where it needs to go. That I've always got, like, an emergency supply of toilet paper, toilet seat covers, that sort of thing. Because in women's restrooms, we are usually well put together on the outside. But something drastic typically happens in women's restrooms, where it could be a little bit of everything you will find in a woman's stall. And so, um, a lot of times you go, and there may not be a toilet seat cover, uh, you need to really sit. There may be times where you reach a toilet paper and there's none there. And so I found myself frequently feeling like I was unprepared. And so what I wanted to do was find something that I could carry that would be really cute, nobody would know what it was, and just have that. And so I started looking on the market for what I wanted. I started looking all over Amazon, Walmart, all the big box retailers, trying to find something to just kind of help me out, give me a little extra hand. While I was using a public restroom, I couldn't find anything, and so I decided to create something. But the process to create it was not overnight for me. It was a true journey of, uh, kind of self doubt. For me, I know what I wanted it to be. I knew what I needed. But every time that I would think about, well, maybe I could make this and sell this to other people and that sort of thing. The negative reel would start in my head, and it would just play like you can't even sew. How are you going to make something? What will possess you to think that you could manufacture something and sell something on the market? And so I struggled with that back and forth for about four to five years, three or four years, I would say, struggling with just, uh, know, oh, I think I can do this. Oh, no. Finally, I decided to push past that and at, uh, the encouragement of a seminar that I went to to make my prototype. Because I knew, kind of like Angelique, I knew what it is that I wanted to happen, what I wanted to see. But I had no idea how to make it and was really doubting my abilities to be able to make something like this. Fast forward. I ended up going and I purchased a little boy's Velcro wallet, that little trifold wallet that little boys have. And I bought a dog leash, and I bought some, um, strip on Velcro. And I came home and I hand sewed what I wanted to happen with the Panty Buddy. And so the Panty Buddy is a public restroom kit that is cute. It's a little wristlet for women. But when you open it, it has a strap that I call the panty protecting strap. And so it helps to hold everything together. So once you pull everything down, it holds everything, pulls it away from the public toilet, it pulls it away from the floor. You don't have to worry about your undergarments or your pants or anything on the bottom of you touching anything on the surface of a public toilet. And it also has an emergency supply of toilet paper and toilet seat covers and hand sanitizing wipes. So you're never without the essentials. Wherever you go as a woman, no matter what scary situations you find in that stall, you'll have everything you need to quickly get in and out of a public restroom.
[00:19:59] Richard Miles: And did you get advice? Did you reach out to other folks in the industry, or how did you just figure out everything on your own?
[00:20:05] Kenya Adams: A little bit of both. So one of the first steps I took is once I had, uh, the prototype made, I got a lot of confidence from that because I used it and it worked. And then I would talk to other women about kind of this little thing that I had, and they seemed interested. And so that kind of fueled my fire to keep going. Eventually, I was able to find a, um, mentor who specialized in manufacturing products. And so, uh, by this time, though, it was the quarantine period of COVID and my full time job had sent me home to work from home full time.
I, all of a sudden had all this time, right? I had no social life. Everything was happening indoors. And so she and I met for a period of about three months every other week, and she literally walked me hand in hand through the manufacturing process, um, everything from taking my little prototype to drawing it out from a technical specs perspective. Everything from seeking out manufacturers, both in the US. And overseas, learning the lingo and kind of talking the talk of being able to negotiate and place orders with overseas manufacturers. And so that little boot camp that I went through was absolutely phenomenal for me, because it taught me everything I needed to move forward, because it was like, okay, I had the idea. Now I finally have a little prototype that I'm using. The idea is working. The prototype is working. Um, but how do you mass produce this as a true product to put on market? And so at the end of the boot camp that I went through with her, I was able to place my first order, um, for the Panty Buddy. So it was a big sense of accomplishment as a mom. It felt like I was birthing a baby. The first shipment that got in, that I got in, it was just really exciting. Um, I cried. It was so exciting. But that whole process was very daunting for me, or it would have been very daunting for me had I not sought the help, um, and really had a mentor to just kind of walk me through it step by step.
[00:22:22] Richard Miles: And Kenya, have you filed for a patent, or did you file for a patent for PantyBuddy?
[00:22:26] Kenya Adams: I have filed for a patent for Pantybuddy. I'm in the final stage of patent review, so I'm really, really excited about it. The patent process is not one that's easy. I did hire an attorney to walk me through that and to handle that for, you know, I'm out there on the USPTO website very often, just kind of checking status and that sort of thing. So, uh, hopefully pretty soon here, I will be granted a patent for the Panty Buddy.
[00:22:52] Richard Miles: I'm sure maybe you had some of the same reaction as Angelique from family and friends, or have you had that reaction know, Kenya, what are you doing? This is too hard. Or, why are you spending money and time doing this?
[00:23:03] Kenya Adams: Yeah, to the point where I was very hesitant about sharing know, I found that, number one, it came about a lot of it for me, like I said, during the quarantine period. And so I found myself isolated anyway. And so this was my little baby that kept me sane during that process and during that period of time. And so I really didn't share a lot about what I was doing or how I was doing it until it really became a true thing for me, um, and immediate family and friends. I had a ton of support, as a matter of fact, to place my first order for Penny Buddy to talk about funding and that sort of thing. I didn't have this pot of gold that I could go to and just order this first shipment. I did a preorder. And so I did a preorder. And I raised enough with family and friends investing in me and taking a chance on what's this crazy thing that you want to do again, kind of thing. But I raised enough to be able to place my first shipment, um, with the preorder. And so that, to me, was a huge vote of confidence that, um, initial family and friends had. I couldn't show them what it was other than my little prototype and samples from the manufacturers. But here's what I want to do and here's going to be the benefit and here's my total vision and plan. And they really supported that. But I had to laugh when Angelique was speaking because a lot of times you will get as I've gone along this journey, I get people that are very doubtful and they will minimize your baby in a minute, the little business and, uh, that kind of thing. But I just find that for me, I always call Pantybuddy the little business that could. And I enjoy the fact that I have had organic growth over these last couple of years. And that's just one of the things that makes it very sweet for me. The process is very sweet for me along the way because as we meet different milestones and we set goals for the company and as we're able to go back and check those goals, uh, off, it's just a huge boost of confidence for me to just keep going and keep doing what you're doing. And doors have just been opened. This book, Edie, has just been a godsend to get this sort of, uh, publicity with all these really heavy hitters that are in this book. It's definitely a boost of confidence for me and just one more thing that just keeps me going.
[00:25:30] Richard Miles: So I got to say, for both of you, Kenya and Angelique, uh, it's got to take a lot of courage. When you look at how competitive the consumer products market is with these huge companies, Amazon and Walmart and Target, and just to go at it and go like, I can succeed in this very competitive market, it's got to take a lot of courage. Or were you scared? Was a part of you said, like, I'm crazy, what am I doing here?
[00:25:53] Kenya Adams: Yeah, for me, I don't even think about it because I really believe that Pantybuddy is offering such a unique offering within the market.
There may be other things kind of similar out there, but with the panty protecting strap and the things that the packaging of it being a wristlet for women and that we can carry the concerts and we can stick our ID and credit card in there and take it to the ballpark and little girls can put feminine hygiene products in. There and be in their high school classroom and just go to the restroom without anybody knowing what they have. I tend to think of Pantybuddy as being in a field of its own. And so, um, um, it doesn't scare me. I just can't wait to introduce the world to the Pantybuddy and to make sure that everybody is aware of what it is and the usefulness of the product and for them to all realize that they need one.
[00:26:47] Richard Miles: I don't doubt what you say at all about women's restrooms. I'll tell you my one and only restroom story. But probably at least 20 years ago, I was in a movie theater with my wife. And I can't remember what movie it was. It was a great movie. But I had to go use the restroom. And I didn't want to be gone because it was such a great movie. So I rushed out into the lobby. I go into the restroom, and the first thing, I look around and go, I thought, this is the nicest men's restroom I've ever been in. It's had carpeting and lighting. So as bad as women's restrooms are, trust me, men's are probably even worse.
[00:27:17] Kenya Adams: Uh, and I get that a lot because I do a lot of in person events and that sort of thing. And so the men always come up to me and say, well, what about the us? And I tell them all the time, boxer Buddy is coming soon. I'm going to get you guys.
[00:27:32] Richard Miles: Oh, yeah. I'm sure there's a big market for, those are those are great stories. Edie, uh, let's wrap it up with you. You've obviously got a lot of great stories in your book. But what jumped out to you about Angelique and, um, Kenya's stories? Why did you find them compelling examples of the inventors that you work with?
[00:27:51] Edie Tolchin: Well, again, necessity is the mother of invention. And that's pretty much the theme of the book. And probably every, we have 27 contributors. And probably everyone saw the need for their particular invention and pursued it. And it was not easy for the majority of the people. I don't know what the percentage is. But these women had never invented before. And they just did what the women have a tendency, you all know, to do what we have to do. Like for me, in writing, I do what I have to do to get my book published. It's not an easy thing to do. And it's need. That's where this book comes in handy. The new book, you all, hopefully, ladies will participate. Um, we're going to do more secrets of successful inventing secrets of successful Women inventors, rather. There's just such a need. And I would like to be the voice. So that's my mission.
[00:28:50] Richard Miles: Tremendous representatives of inventors, uh, I'm sure you've probably heard of, um, the inventor of Spanx. I'm blanking on her name right now.
[00:28:59] Edie Tolchin: Sarah Blakely.
[00:29:00] Richard Miles: Sarah Blakely from Florida. I heard her speak once, and she just had these great stories about she told this one where she got into one big department store like Macy's or something. She was super excited, thinking, all right, I'm in Macy's. I'm going to make it. I'm in the big time now. And all that meant was she was in some corner down in some bin, and her product wasn't selling at all. So she went and she dressed up like she was a Macy's saleswoman. And, um, she got like a stand from the bookstore and she put it right next to the cash register. And she stood there and Macy's was so big, they all assumed, like, well, some new saleswoman from some other department and she was selling the spanx at the cashier. And then pretty soon they started putting it more prominently. So I said, well, that's a woman who wants her product to sell.
[00:29:48] Edie Tolchin: See, we basically do what we have to do. Yeah, I think all the women do sometimes. Uh, I'm m not being okay. Women versus men. It's just been harder for women, typically. I think things are changing now with the younger generation. I'm not the younger generation, but I've observed and I, um, just see more opportunity. I have actually interviewed more than 100 inventors over the years for my column in Inventors Digest. And, um, now, for some strange reason, it's just I'm getting more and more women inventors. Oh, can you interview me? And of course I'm doing that. I just want to give everyone an opportunity not to say, no, there's a guy inventor out there. Of course I'll interview him. But for the most part, I'm trying to help women along. That's my mission.
[00:30:39] Richard Miles: Well, Angelique, Kenya, uh, Edie, thank you very much for your time today. All great stories. I wish you all the best success. I hope your products sell well and sell widely. And, uh, I look forward to interviewing you again when your companies have gone public and you're in charge of an empire.
[00:30:56] Angelique Warner: Yes, yes, that would be wonderful.
[00:30:58] Richard Miles: Thanks very much for being on the Inventivity pod.
[00:31:04] James Di Virgilio: The Inventivity Pod is produced by the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention located in Gainesville, Florida. Richard Miles and me, James Di Virgilio are your podcast hosts. Podcasts are recorded at the Heartwood Sound stage in Gainesville and edited and mixed by Rob Rothschild. Be sure to subscribe to the Inventivity Pod wherever you get your podcast, and leave a comment or review to let us know how we're doing. Until next time, be inventive.
